12v supply from a 24v system

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
> "Capt. NealŪ" wrote in message
>
>> I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
> positive pole connected
>> to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
> negative poles must be
>> connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
> electronic gadget that will
>> cause current to flow through the entire circuit.
>
> In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
> discharged together through the load.
> The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
> can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.
>
> To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
> can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
> discharged than the other.
>
> Meindert
>

You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
> "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
>
>
>> "Capt. NealŪ" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
>>
>> positive pole connected
>>
>>> to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
>>
>> negative poles must be
>>
>>> connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
>>
>> electronic gadget that will
>>
>>> cause current to flow through the entire circuit.
>>
>>
>> In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
>> only be
>> discharged together through the load.
>> The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
>> batteries you
>> can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.
>>
>> To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole,
>> which
>> can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is
>> more
>> discharged than the other.
>>
>> Meindert
>>
>
> You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
> charge with a charging
> source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
> there exists a complete
> circuit.
>
> When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
> charge because the
> photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
> than the 12v in the
> batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
> and the solid lead
> and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
> reverses when the
> photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
> electrons are released.
> Current never goes backwards in the battery.
>
> This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
> engineers fall prey to it.
>
> CN
>
Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +<12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current
is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:

> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.

Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
>> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>
> Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
> can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.


You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:


>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
>>>>>> positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive
>>>>>>> and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
>>>>>> electronic gadget that will
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cause current to flow through the entire circuit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they
>>>>>> will only be
>>>>>> discharged together through the load.
>>>>>> The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
>>>>>> batteries you
>>>>>> can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
>>>>>> pole, which
>>>>>> can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where
>>>>>> one is more
>>>>>> discharged than the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meindert
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>>>>> You charge with a charging
>>>>> source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
>>>>> there exists a complete
>>>>> circuit.

>>> Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
>>> releases electricity
>>> chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
>>> circuit that exists is
>>> external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
>>> (electrons) can be added
>>> to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
>>> pipe of some sort
>>> that has flow one way or the other inside it.
>>> that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not
>>> a circuit.
>>>
>>> CN
>>
>> OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current
>> flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a
>> circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to
>> the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by
>> definition, current flow.
>
>
> There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
> the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
> of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
> to a circuit externally to power it.
>
> Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
> reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
> They go in, they go out, they don't go through.
> Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
> higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
> can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
> increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
> flow through the battery - only in and out.
>
> Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
> understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
> not a circuit.
>
> CN
If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from
your solar panel? I fill my gas tank with only one hose. Maybe it's so
that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the
other. That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current
flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the
battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other?
krj
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:

>
> "Steve Firth" wrote in message
>
>
>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>
>>> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>>
>>
>> Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
>> can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.
>
>
>
> You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.
>
> One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into
> shunts)
>
> What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through
> the battery.
> A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it
> together. It is but
> a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
> electrons.
>
> When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or
> nothing unless
> you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
> water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current
> increasing.
>
> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a
> battery
> unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores
> electrons. These
> go in or out but never through.
>
> CN
Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction.
Movement of electrons is called "current flow"
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

"krj" wrote in message
> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
>>>>>>> positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive
>>>>>>>> and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
>>>>>>> electronic gadget that will
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cause current to flow through the entire circuit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
>>>>>>> discharged together through the load.
>>>>>>> The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
>>>>>>> can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
>>>>>>> can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
>>>>>>> discharged than the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Meindert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
>>>>>> source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
>>>>>> circuit.
>
>>>> Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
>>>> chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
>>>> external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
>>>> to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
>>>> that has flow one way or the other inside it.
>>>> that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not
>>>> a circuit.
>>>>
>>>> CN
>>>
>>> OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from +
>>> to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery,
>>> there is by definition, current flow.
>>
>>
>> There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
>> the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
>> of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
>> to a circuit externally to power it.
>>
>> Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
>> reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
>> They go in, they go out, they don't go through.
>> Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
>> higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
>> can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
>> increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
>> flow through the battery - only in and out.
>>
>> Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
>> understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
>> not a circuit.
>>
>> CN
> If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from your solar panel?

Good question. You connect the negative lead so the chemical reactions can
proceed. There is one chemical reaction on the positive plates and another on
the negative plates. They must run together or they won't run at all.

> I fill my gas tank with only one hose.

But, if you didn't allow a way for air to escape, you would not be
able to fill your tank.

> Maybe it's so that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the other.

Correct because the solar panel uses photons from the sun to drive the
current round and round and does not store electrons like a battery does.

> That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the
> battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other?

Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery. They only reside
on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit). When the
separated plates are connected by a circuit outside the battery another set
of chemical reactions can then occur which reactions produce electrons as this
set of reactions goes to completion via the circuit outside the battery.

The lack of understanding of what happens inside a battery around these
groups is appalling. It's basic chemistry and not that difficult to comprehend.

CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

"krj" wrote in message
> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
>>
>> "Steve Firth" wrote in message
>>
>>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>>
>>>> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
>>> can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.
>>
>>
>>
>> You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.
>>
>> One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)
>>
>> What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
>> A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
>> a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.
>>
>> When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
>> you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
>> water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.
>>
>> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
>> unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
>> go in or out but never through.
>>
>> CN
> Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"


Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.

Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.

CN

CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:

>
> "krj" wrote in message
>
>
>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Steve Firth" wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
>>>> can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.
>>>
>>> One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into
>>> shunts)
>>>
>>> What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not
>>> through the battery.
>>> A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it
>>> together. It is but
>>> a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to
>>> STORE electrons.
>>>
>>> When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or
>>> nothing unless
>>> you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
>>> water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current
>>> increasing.
>>>
>>> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a
>>> battery
>>> unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores
>>> electrons. These
>>> go in or out but never through.
>>>
>>> CN
>>
>> Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical
>> reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"
>
>
>
> Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.
>
> Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.
>
> CN
>
> CN
Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement
of electrons through the medium within a battery.
krj
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

"krj" wrote in message
> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
>>
>> "krj" wrote in message
>>
>>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Steve Firth" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
>>>>> can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.
>>>>
>>>> One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)
>>>>
>>>> What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
>>>> A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
>>>> a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.
>>>>
>>>> When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
>>>> you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
>>>> water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.
>>>>
>>>> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
>>>> unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
>>>> go in or out but never through.
>>>>
>>>> CN
>>>
>>> Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"
>>
>>
>>
>> Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.
>>
>> Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.
>>
>> CN
>>
>> CN
> Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement of electrons through the medium within a battery.
> krj

I admit no such thing. Electrons move into and out of the plates via chemical
reactions. Electrons don't move through the plates as in from positive plate
to negative plate through the media. If this were the case, there would be
no potential and no battery.

CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

Capt. NealŪ wrote:

> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery

Utter bollocks.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>
>> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
>
> Utter bollocks.


Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system 

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. NealŪ
wrote:

>
>"Steve Firth" wrote in message
>> Capt. NealŪ wrote:
>>
>>> Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
>>
>> Utter bollocks.
>
>
>Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
>If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.
>
>
>CN

Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.

I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.

Tell us again how that works.

Regards
Gary
 >> Stay informed about: 12v supply from a 24v system